MNT2ACHIEVE with Nicky Duggan Redfern
An Interview with Nicky Duggan Redfern, Human Resource Specialist.
“We have to reaffirm and reshape ‘what good looks like’ in the leadership space”
Were you always a leader? When did you know you had the capacity to lead?
Wow, that is such a question. I suppose yes, I always was – I was an avid sports person, I played in every team I could (Netball, Swimming, Tennis, Rounders, Gymnastics, Athletics) and captained in most of them. I loved to take the lead, in team sports particularly – that has always been “my thing” – I love motivating a team and I love to be in a competitive environment. I have always spoken up and wanted to drive things forward – I think I knew I had the capacity to lead when I became captain of the Netball team aged 10/11. It was a very natural thing for me – I wanted to do it, I valued the role and I was very proud to have earned it.
What or who Influencing you growing up?
Many things influenced me growing up – my family, politics, music, my heritage, my friends – I think when I think back to my growing up, my mother and father had 6 children – I was the 5th. I was outspoken and feisty and felt I had to fight to be heard…..and I think that has helped me (although, it has been a weakness as well!) – My mother and father were very hard working, very generous, and kind, and I think how they conducted themselves, with great integrity, was a huge influence in my life – the values of hard work, empathy giving, kindness and having a very strong moral compass – this is what they gave me and it is truly how I try to live my life.
What was your first job and what did it teach you?
Well – my first job was an unpaid one, working for my parents – looking after the elderly residents of our Home for the Elderly. It taught me to be thoughtful, careful and that you have to be organised!
My first paid job was as a barmaid and ‘chambermaid” or housekeeper in a hotel. Working in the bar taught me that mostly people just want to be treated kindly and listened to. The Chambermaid job was physically the hardest job I’ve ever done! Again, being organised and having a system so you don’t forget things and you do a thorough but fast job!
Why Human Resources?
I worked in retail and front-line selling – I loved the people, and the influencing and being successful. It was incredibly draining but I did love it. When I had by daughter, I felt I needed a change, and I had been asked to conduct leadership training and help train the new salespersons. I found I really liked the behind the scenes, helping the organisation be successful and contributing to that in a support role, and it used all the same skills of influencing and listening and observing and reading the situation, as working front line did, but it also allowed for a more strategic and thinking aspect to helping the organsiation perform well – so it was wider than just my own sales and that of my immediate team, and I really liked it. So, I asked to join the recruitment team and it basically happened from there. I also felt strongly that I could do a better job in some ways than those who had only ever done the behind the scenes – I felt we weren’t understood well, out the front there, and I thought that experience would help me help HR do better at supporting the operations. I don’t think you have to have done the job you’re supporting people in, but I do believe a huge dose of empathy and understanding goes a long way to helping you be successful in implementing new ideas, policies and approaches, whatever the environment and I do try to use the “seek first to understand” approach as much as possible.
What stands out to you when interviewing candidates for a leadership role?
Firstly - Their immediate rapport building, reading the room and demonstrating that they are able to adapt very quickly to the new situation they find themselves in and the people they are interacting with. I’m looking for confidence not arrogance, nuanced communication, and the ability to put us all at ease – This is the role I play in many panels, and I am most looking for the candidate to take that role on a little – but adjust, respond and “read the room”. I also like to see a bit of humility.
Secondly – their ability to clearly communicate, summarise effectively and demonstrate their thinking style as well as their communication skills. We are looking to find out how this person conceptualises things and how they explain then (to their team, to an audience, to a panel) and doing that effectively, without just transmitting, is something I am definitely looking for.
There is research that supports that women don’t always do as well as men in the interview process. Why do you think that is?
My experience is that women are less confident, visibly, less sure of themselves, and underplay themselves in the interview room. I have seen highly capable and experienced women, not sell themselves well, or second-guess themselves in the interview, or seem under prepared for the experience? I am not sure why that is, but I have seen it many times, that women just don’t impress – either too much or too little – they very often just don’t hit the right balance of confidence and surety and humility; I speak about it all the time and it frustrates me enormously!
What can women, especially when competing in traditionally male roles, do to best prepare for the interview process?
Practice – with both a man and women leader they know, who will give them real feedback, rapid fire questions, prepare them for the interruptions that may happen and have a tough and frank preparation practice. If the answer to the question is too long winded, practice the shorter, punchier answer. It takes practice to get great at anything and I think a lot of women walk in apologetically, asking permission to be there, and they have to come willing to show they should be there and demonstrate that in their own confident way, demonstrating what kind of leader they are in reality. Be authentic, believable and show you should be there!
What role have you seen gender bias play in the (unconscious or conscious) thoughts of a hiring committee and what can be done to reduce it?
I have seen very definite preference to what is known as ‘narcissistic’ recruitment – recruiting in one’s own image – that happens a lot and if the panel is of a particular demographic, what good looks like tends to end up being what they are. It’s unconscious and it isn’t just men who experience it or act this way – I believe we are socially and historically conditioned to trust men more, to believe they can lead better and we see their characteristics; the way they think, explain, deliberate, as more and as ‘better’. We have to reaffirm and reshape ‘what good looks like’ in the leadership space to provide for women, different ethnicity and diminish the east and west divide – stop defining leadership by a male, western, 50+, white definition.
How important is mentoring for women in leadership? What should someone do if there aren’t formal mentoring programs available in their workplace?
Professionally and personally I believe in having great relationships with people you admire and respect – so informal mentoring is very useful as well as a more formal relationships of this nature. My experience in organisations where formal mentoring programmes exist as well as no formal programmes, is that driven and committed professionals will seek out support and relationships with people they admire and respect. If you would like to find a great mentor, I would advise you to have a good talk to yourself and consider your development needs – where do you feel and your line manager, your greatest development needs lie. Then do some research on who in the organisation does this very well, and who is successful, highly regarded and someone you could learn from. Then I would simply approach them directly and ask if they would consider meeting regularly for a face to face or skype, to discuss issues occurring and for them to be your mentor – I have never seen this fail as an approach. Great leaders want to help other great leaders succeed.
What advice do you have for aspiring female leaders in preparing for leadership?
Feel the fear and do it anyway! I do actually live by this – facing into your fears and what you’re not so good at helps you grow as a person anyway – we know that.
Have a good support network! I have 2 children, and a great husband who has made my career a possibility – I would not have been able to do it alone – I live far, far away from family and have done for 25 years and so this was my support network. Make sure you have solid support, people who love you and want to see you succeed. Becoming a successful leader takes time, dedication and commitment and it can be time-consuming – and if you have a family (obviously this comes in different packages but for me it’s a husband and 2 kids and aging parents), you will have moments when it feels too much and you feel guilty etc. However, I have never met any Mum who doesn’t feel guilty – it’s just about something else – we are constantly questioning how good we are and whether we are doing it right – and this is part of the problem – It makes us better at a lot of things, but holds us back.
Don’t over question and psych yourself out! Question – absolutely – have humility and reflect often, but believe in yourself, listen to great people around you, and don’t over-question your ability!! You can do this!
What is your favorite leadership quote and why?
I have several –
“When someone reveals themselves to you, believe them” - Maya Angelou
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?” - Marianne Williamson
"I have learned over the years that when one's mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear." -Rosa Parks
And it’s not a quote per se, but lastly my current CEO taught me a great and simple lesson as I push too hard and drive my team too hard, sometimes - A little spoonful of sugar works better than a little spoonful of vinegar – as in, you will get a lot more out of people if you are kinder and gentler, than maybe the stress of the situation is making you feel - Great advice!
What is next for you?
What is amazingly interesting about this questionnaire is that I want to take a small break –moving our family back to Australia, new school, new house, new life. But when I am ready, I would very much like to help women get into those leadership roles that they deserve and want, and I have spoken about it often. I have found the last 10 years fascinating in working with great women leaders and interviewing prospective women leaders and I have found it wonderfully frustrating to see them not quite make it. I have always had a strong desire to help, and I think this is an area I can, so perhaps that’s the next big adventure. But I am taking a pause first! Thank you for asking my thoughts – It has been a very thought-provoking and worthwhile.
BIO
Nicky recently completed nine years serving as the the Chief HR Officer of Nord Anglia Education. She joined Nord Anglia Education in January 2012 from HSBC Hong Kong, where she was the Regional Finance Head of Organisation Development from 2007. Prior to this Nicky was the Human Resource Director of LASALLE-SIA College of the Arts (now LASALLE College of the Arts) where she successfully led people change initiatives including talent and capability development, performance management and renewed effectiveness in retention and recruitment.
With an extensive range of HR leadership experience working across Australia and Asia Pacific countries and businesses, Nicky has a strong track record in delivering successful organisational development, employee engagement, integration and people change projects.